Are people slow, or do fighters think fast?

[vintu]

If you have ever been in a fight, I bet you know what I'm talking about. The fighter almost always throws a big, slow, sloppy haymaker right at your face. It takes YEARS for the punch to be delivered. Is it just that they are so slow, or do those who train fighting think faster/anticipate the technique?

In fact, it seems like the whole fighter is easier for the one who trains in it (obviously). Have you guys ever experienced something like that? It seems like they must be tricking you because they are going slowly, but it's serious! haha

[Moonduck]

90% of success in a fight is having a clue what is going to happen, and what to do. Most people throw those John wayne haymakers because they don't know any better. What's worse, is that a lot of people get clobbered by those slow-moving trains because they don' tknow what to do about them. The basic training you receive in competent MA instruction (this includes boxing, wrestling, etc) gives you both the foreknowledge of what to expect from an opponent, as well as some basic maneuvers to use in defense and offense.

Simply by having a reaction of any sort, you are far ahead of the normal schmuck. Speed happens later and is based more on the individual than the training. some training is conducive to speed, but a really slow trainee will stay slow.

I've been on the receiving end of one of those slow-moving untrained attacks. Before I even knew what I was doing, I had the guy ont he ground and I was on top of him. For the life of me I couldn't tell you what particular takedown I used, as I was a bit more concerned about stopping this guy. Whatever it was, it worked, and that is what mattered. Once I was on top of him, it was more amatter of controlling him than anything else, and training took over there too.

Was he slow? Yeah. Was I fast? No clue. The whole thing happened too quickly for me to give good reports. There were too many other people involved. All I can say was that I had a response that was better than his attack, and that was that. And that is 90% of a fight right there, IMO.

[Fatman]

The beauty of training in a martial art is that you develop "muscular thinking", where your body learns a movement pattern through repetition and perfection and you end up reacting before your brain has the opportunity to adjust to the situation. This is sufficient to save your behind (not to mention nose and teeth) in 85% of fights.

This could be another reason why people who have two to five techniques down pat always triumph over those who have a superficial knowledge of a s***load of cool moves. If you start thinking about execution, you end up tripping yourself up, and in an actual fight that means getting your ass kicked.

[Stormy]

Awareness. Pure and simple. It isn't speed of thought, it's the fact that you know it's coming because you can see it coming.

Also, in adrenal circumstances, the body resorts to gross motor mechanics, so big swings and generally big movements take over - hence the John Wayne haymaker. This can be overcome by learned response, but small motor movements, like joint locks and the more elaborate throws all go out of the window in a street fight. If you watch a street fight it's all sloppy, no finesse, no matter who's fighting. Just look at some of the coverage of boxers brawling each other in the street.

That's why I train my gross motor movements like elbows, headbutts, knees and clinch work. Oh and some great little dirty fighting stuff...

[Singnakornchai]

Fatman has hit the nail on the head. It'a all about repetition. I train Muay Thai and certain drills now just happen, Left hook, right kick etc, also defence. If you can stay a lil bit calm in a bad situation and you have had some good combat training "not a few weeks here and there, more like a few years" you will def have a heads up on your average joe throwing the haymaker.

[Dominator350]

You need to watch this. It sounds like what youre talking about.


http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFitBlauer_Flinch&1st2secs.wmv

[koltz]

well in relation to nature it's the "people are(get) slow."

[bas410]

usually theyre slow because they are drunk i guess? i think the average, sober person can react pretty damn fast if he feels seriously threatened.

[Erik]

Possibly, but the aveage sober person maywell react wrong in a violent situation (unless their reaction is to run, in which case, good on them).

This is why training is so important.

[bas410]

of course training is important, i couldnt agree more. withouth proper training it'd be really hard to react well in any given fight.
but i think people are generally way stronger when it really matters.

[..n..]

A lot of the speed is a result of good from. A punch from A to B, and back, with good biomechanics will be much faster than a wild overhand that starts about a foot behind your head. Becoming accustomed to taking and throwing punches will also slow things down for you so you have time to react. With that being said I still take strait right square in the face more than I’d like.;)

[Erik]

of course training is important, i couldnt agree more. withouth proper training it'd be really hard to react well in any given fight.
but i think people are generally way stronger when it really matters.

This is true.

Adreniline is a wonderful thing, speaking as one who managed to get a leg out from under a car just before it was crushed (the leg, not the car).

[isaiah.chentnik]

If you have ever been in a fight, I bet you know what I'm talking about. The fighter almost always throws a big, slow, sloppy haymaker right at your face. It takes YEARS for the punch to be delivered. Is it just that they are so slow, or do those who train fighting think faster/anticipate the technique?

In fact, it seems like the whole fighter is easier for the one who trains in it (obviously). Have you guys ever experienced something like that? It seems like they must be tricking you because they are going slowly, but it's serious! haha

When you get an adrenaline rush your body shuts off oxygen & energy to muscle groups and parts of your body that are not conducive to survival i.e. stomach, genitals, etc... This allows the rest of your body to use everything you got. As well more oxygen, adrenaline, blood flows through your brain and muscles. Hence super speed and fast thinking. When people get in car accidents or life threatening situations they say their life flashed before their eyes and sometimes feel as though they had time to reflect and think about life while it was happening or that it seemed like slow motion. That is because they were in hyper drive and in a lot of cases it can save your life. It also happens when you are about to get punched in the head by someone even if it is a sloppy hay maker.

Likewise sometimes people who are not as intelligent don't translate information from their body to there brain as efficiently as someone else might (NOT to say if your slow your dumb). These people may seem to have trouble seeing or understanding what is going on at times while others have no problem figuring it out with less thought. Your neuro-connectors banging away sending messages to the rest of your body is a form of intelligence. If you are inherently quick, fast, etc.. this could be a result of having a lot of neurological pathways. Likewise if you train your body to recognize these situations quickly the rest of you will respond faster. And some people are just inherently quick reflexes, reactions, movements for both of these reasons.

[isaiah.chentnik]

The basic training you receive in competent MA instruction (this includes boxing, wrestling, etc) gives you both the foreknowledge of what to expect from an opponent, as well as some basic maneuvers to use in defense and offense.


I agree, with any good martial arts instructor the first thing they teach you will probably be to block a punch and more than likely it will be a simple hay maker type punch. Most of the fights outside a ring I have seen end up being sloppy to the 10th degree. It's hard even for a good fighter, especially knowing there are no rules and losing can mean more than a KO. I have seen a bunch of fights were each person didn't know what they are doing (even the biggest and burliest) and they mostly ended up slapped with hay maker like crap. Hell, watch Bob Sapp fight, lol. Thats gotta be the epitome of crap form and sloppy slapping. Now watch how the other fighters beat him. Simple technique performed well is dangerous.

[bas410]

bah, yesterday went out drinking with a friend, nearly got in a fight. curious on your opinions, this is what happened.

Me and a friend went out of a bar after a few beers and sat down in front of a statue that stood nearly in front of the bar. we were talking about nothing really, and i laughed and looked around. suddenly a fat huge guy comes up to me and pushes me and is like: 'why are you laughing about me?' me: 'dude i wasnt laughing about you, take it easy'. he kicks me in the leg (not hard or anything, but still) and said: 'yeah, you wouldnt even be able to laugh about me.' then he walked away.

i know it's better to avoid fights and it wasnt my intention to get into a fight, but i really have the feeling i let him go too far. i think youll understand what i mean: when does somebody push it too far? strange thing is, we were with two guys, both nearly 2 meters and pretty much in shape, so i guess we couldve taken him on easily. mentally though its a different story. i start to think 'slow' when threatened (thats why i posted this here). how the hell can that happen and how to avoid it?

[Fatman]

It's better to avoid the fight. I know you feel like crap about it at first, but it's really the smart thing to do in the long run. So you did the smart thing and let him go away.

The only time where you should react is when you're pretty sure that the guy is about to do you some damage. Then make sure you hit first and go to the very end (i.e. until you're sure the other guy won't hit back).

Also this goes without saying, but don't rely on McDojo techniques to defend yourself in real life. Martial art school techniques cannot be used in an actual fight, and most of the time another guy is waiting patiently for you to use your fancy move on his friend so that he can kidney-punch you or bottle you.

[isaiah.chentnik]

how the hell can that happen and how to avoid it?

I believe your referring to something a little bit different than adrenaline. It is not easy to be prepared for stressful situations. Getting in a ring and fighting can be completely different than getting in a real fight. Real fights can be stressful in a completely different way. A lot of how your body reacts to it's environment is directly related to your perception and mind. It's ok to NOT be inclined to fight. In fact I would say most people in the world are not inclined to want to fight first, even armed forces or professional fighters.

I would even go as far as to say that the big fat man that approached you was probably more intimidated by you than you were of him. This is why he felt the need to give you a hard time. He was feeling insecure about his body weight. When you laughed you threatened him. Change your perspective and you realize that you have the potential to hurt someone like that, far worse without even raising a fist.

To far is when someone causes you physical or emotional damage. That is only something that you can decide for yourself. My personal opinion is that if you can't tolerate insults or some pushes and shoves than your a bit weak. A truly strong individual will realize the strength it takes NOT to go to town over a bunch of bullshit. Do you really want to be the guy fighting because someone said something stupid to you (thats what assholes do)? What does that say about how you think? Is it really that easy to get the best of you? If it is that easy well, good luck! Because there are things/challenges in life that would make a kick to the leg and an insult seem like a walk in the park in comparison.

Not to preach to much but have you ever watched a western movie and some instigator goes for his pistols because he is mad (insulted) and then gets shot? Do you ever think, what was the point of that? Couldn't he have ignored it and he would still be alive? Even if the person your fighting isn't gonna kill you, is it really worth it? Save the fights for something better.

[isaiah.chentnik]

bah, yesterday went out drinking with a friend, nearly got in a fight. curious on your opinions, this is what happened.

With fighting (not controlled) it is really difficult at best to be prepared properly. You could be upset because someone pointed a gun at you or you could be drunk and pissed off at a girl or someone could be starting shit with you. You could be raging furious because someone just caused you or a friend harm. Some things you simply cannot prepare for. If your anticipating fighting and someone pulls a gun on you, I am sure it is unexpected because why would you be fighting someone that you new would pull a gun? What could you do? Personally I am weary of anyone who says that they would fight or say that they have some sort of move to take it away because most of that is a bunch of Hollywood bullshit. Even a special forces soldier who can kill with a couple of moves isn't gonna try anything with a loaded gun aimed right at him because he knows how dangerous it really is even if the other person is a schmuck.

In your case a big fat man giving you "the dis" could potentially be dangerous, even if he is big and fat. The better you recognize this the better off you are. Especially since he has already under estimated you now you have the advantage.

Controlling your anxiety is something that you will have to learn to do separate from fighting and then later you can use it when you need to. I practice meditation (Buddhism, not strictly). Not because I am super religious but because clearing my mind and focusing allows me to make good judgment above all else as well as react, move, punch etc... more quickly. I will admit the first fight I saw I got scared to death. I froze up while I watched someone get their ass kicked (I was 10 years old). If something like that happened now I could tolerate quite easily (25 years old). I would suggest learning a martial art of sorts (my personal favorite MuayThai - kickboxing) almost anything will work as long as it is legitimate (even non legitimate could help w/ logic bearing). Develop some sense of confidence with your ability to defend yourself and you will find not only that you don't "get slow" but that you realize that you don't need to fight a big fat man to prove you can kick his ass because you already know.

[bas410]

isaiah, first of all, thanks for an inspiring post. i think you are definately right that i should just be able to tolerate some pushing and shoving, especially if the guy was just searching for a fight (with who-knows-what under his sleeve, be it a knive, a gun or maybe some friends around the corner). this guy seemed like he was searching for a fight. he didnt appear drunk at all, and we were also not drunk.

Develop some sense of confidence with your ability to defend yourself and you will find not only that you don't "get slow" but that you realize that you don't need to fight a big fat man to prove you can kick his ass because you already know.

yeah, confidence in my ability to defend myself. the thing is, ive never been in any serious fight that was threatening. not that i want to get in a fight like that, but you are right that maybe a martial art can help build that type of confidence.

clearing my mind and focusing allows me to make good judgment above all else as well as react, move, punch etc... more quickly.

and that's something i want to develop as well, just to be able to think clearly whenever, wherever. what you said really makes me think about what a strong fighter actually is. i mean, for example, i am pretty strong, at nearly 2 meters and 86 kilos i can do a shitload of pullups and variations and the same for pushups and dips, but that is hardly going to help me when i would have to fight. big fat adrenalin dump in your system and reasonable thinking seems to fade away. what makes a good fighter? mental relaxation, also when put under stress?

fatman is of course also right, avoiding is better, strike when you feel so threatened that you're gonna get hurt.

[isaiah.chentnik]

isaiah, first of all, thanks for an inspiring post. i think you are definately right that i should just be able to tolerate some pushing and shoving, especially if the guy was just searching for a fight (with who-knows-what under his sleeve, be it a knive, a gun or maybe some friends around the corner). this guy seemed like he was searching for a fight. he didnt appear drunk at all, and we were also not drunk.



yeah, confidence in my ability to defend myself. the thing is, ive never been in any serious fight that was threatening. not that i want to get in a fight like that, but you are right that maybe a martial art can help build that type of confidence.



and that's something i want to develop as well, just to be able to think clearly whenever, wherever. what you said really makes me think about what a strong fighter actually is. i mean, for example, i am pretty strong, at nearly 2 meters and 86 kilos i can do a shitload of pullups and variations and the same for pushups and dips, but that is hardly going to help me when i would have to fight. big fat adrenalin dump in your system and reasonable thinking seems to fade away. what makes a good fighter? mental relaxation, also when put under stress?

fatman is of course also right, avoiding is better, strike when you feel so threatened that you're gonna get hurt.

Just be careful not to confuse sport fighting & Martial Arts for performance sake with self defense. They can be 3 completely different things. Most Martial Arts will teach a little bit of everything because that is how they survive through the ages. To be realistic hand to hand combat is quite outdated in many circumstances. You have to be careful if you are in a fight your not gonna try something that looks neat but is not very effective in a tactical situation (like a tornado kick or spinning back fists). Likewise, never bring a knife to a gun fight. Most importantly, none of them can teach you how to stop a bullet.

Some Martial Arts will teach you elaborate forms that look great/cool but completely overlook the fact that kicking someone in the nuts or punching in the solar plexus can just about stop someone with one shot. This is what makes Muay Thai so effective even though its a sport. It teaches things like knees and elbows which can actually crush somebodies bones if done properly.

I have also seen black belts get their asses kicked by people who just inherently have a nasty disposition. So.... good judgment will get you the furthest of any advice anyone could give you.