And I thought I was in shape...

[Sven]

I've played football for 3 yrs now and have been lifting during the off season, so I figured I was in pretty good shape... Had my first Kung Fu skills class yesterday, and I saw more black spots than anything else about 15 minutes into it... It went on for another 45 mins and by the end I was doing half pushups from my knees with difficulty lol....

Basically we did conditioning stuff for about half an hour after warm up, and then we started the actual MA stuff for the last half hour... Was completely dead after that, and am soar as hell today... I actually had to take a couple minute break during the workout to keep myself from fainting...

Is this type of thing normal or am I just really outta shape? How long should it take before I start being able to keep up with the rest of the class?

[cheesedog]

Yeah, that's pretty normal at first. You probably aren't used to doing so much muscle endurance work, and any technique practice (punches, kicks, stances) are new to you so you're not moving efficiently, thus wast ing energy. Don't worry, you'll get used to it! In a month or two you probably won't have any trouble keeping up.

[koltz]

sounds like cross fit endurance humbling , pretty dumb.


I'm not in shape how most of them define it , but I am stronger then any of them.

+kung fu guys are skinny.

[Moonduck]

I recently did a training session with a local Oly lifting team. We ended the session with a crossfit style routine. It was serious work, wow.

Overall though, you need to remember that every sport has specific attribut4es. While you may have been in shape for football, kung fu makes you use your body in entirely different ways. There is crossover though. Sure, you were beat, but imagie how wrecked you would've been had you not had the football training.

[crazydan]

what is crossfit?

[Sven]

Well I guess I'll just keep working at it then, it's on tuesdays and thursdays, so I guess I will lift saturday and sunday to stop myself from getting to skinny (as koltz put it)... Thanks for the info

[cheesedog]

Crossfit has a website (just google crossfit). You'll find tons of info there.
Most of their workouts are what they refer to as "metcon", short for metabolic conditioning, which means doing alot of sprinting with bw or weight circuits. They also do some heavy lifting and gymnastics.

They post a new workout (WOD) workout of the day every day. Some of their workouts are great, I've adopted a number of them myself. Some of them are WAY too hard for anyone but the most fit without "scaling down" the workout.

There are people don't like them because they can have a bit of a "cultish" thing going on about their workout system. Personally I couldn't care less, I just like some of their stuff. (and give credit to whom it is due)

[crazydan]

o thanks.

[brutality is law]

sounds like cross fit endurance humbling , pretty dumb.


I'm not in shape how most of them define it , but I am stronger then any of them.

+kung fu guys are skinny.

Put your ego aside for a minute and think real. Get with the picture this is a combat forum not a show off forum. Strength alone serves little purpose in any martial arts. And i put my money on it that any of them kung fu guys can kick your ass!

[Moonduck]

Actually, it is a bodyweight exercise forum, and this is the combat arts section. And if any section has more than its' fair share of e-penis waggling, it is this one.

And I've never been impressed with the combat ability of the actual kung fu guys I've gotten the chance to play with. Great athletes, flexible and fast, but they lacked in the really important attributes for actual hand-to-hand work (eye for distance, timing, real world footwork, etc). Apparently they did not do much sparring at their studio *shrug*. It was a shame. They could've been great.

This is not to say that all kung fu studios produce bad fighters, but I sure as heck wasn't impressed with the two I got to cross gloves with. I will say that they looked a damnsight more fluid and pretty than I ever did, or will. I ain't built for that.

--

Because people usually want specifics, one was a guy in his 40's (at the time) that had done Jow-ga for a number of years. He joined our Kenpo group to learn some real-world self-defense. He had stunning power, but no ability to move footwork-wise. His footwork patterns were just that, patterns. Very predictable and too easy to check, and his strikes were similarly patterned and predictable. The other was teenager that had done some esoteric form that I don't recall. Fast beyond belief, but couldn't put a bit of force in any shot, and somehow could not get the idea that people were allowed to hit him while he was throwing his furious flurry of (soft) blows.

The Jow-ga guy was cool though. His forms were awesome to watch, and had SO much power. You didn't ever want to be on the wrong end of his strikes, but with that predictability problem (and his huge tells) there usually wasn't much to worry about.

[cookbookabc123]

koltz is goof ball what did you expect him to say lol

[Sepanto]

sounds like cross fit endurance humbling , pretty dumb.


I'm not in shape how most of them define it , but I am stronger then any of them.

+kung fu guys are skinny.

Pure strength is not that necessary for being the superior fighter. Many things are far more important such as :
Leverage and using it to your own advantage.
Knowledge of where to strike
Speed
Controlling the distance
Good Technique
Explosiveness
Killer instinct

and more....
All Gung-Fuer's I trained with ruled in the speed and explosiveness, and as such compensated for the lack of absolute strength. (note : the only Gung-Fu trainees which I trained with were a black belt with more than 10 years of experience (one of the trained for 7 years in a shaolin temple, so he's probably not an example of most Gung-Fu trainees)).


However I do agree that Gung-Fu novice's are very very weak in comparison say to boxing or muay thai or w/e

[sifujerry]

Well I guess I'll just keep working at it then, it's on tuesdays and thursdays, so I guess I will lift saturday and sunday to stop myself from getting to skinny (as koltz put it)... Thanks for the info

Just a quick point here since I actually own a Gung Fu school:

It might be more than the workout that was fatiguing you so much.

I have found many hardcore "football" type athletes have a problem with correct breathing techniques and also trying to hard. If you have a problem with one or both of those issues, you're actually burning yourself out. It's not the routine.

In addition to it being a new type of workout and also being the FIRST workout will make it very tough for you. Just like anything else workout related, your body needs time to adjust.

In your next class, try to take a more relaxed approach and breath. Most often I find that the kicks section is where the problems come up. Rely more on your support leg and focus on keeping the kicking leg relaxed.

If I'm off the mark, I apologize. Just thought I'd offer a different perspective.

Best, Jerry

[gregusus]

Because people usually want specifics, one was a guy in his 40's (at the time) that had done Jow-ga for a number of years. He joined our Kenpo group to learn some real-world self-defense. He had stunning power, but no ability to move footwork-wise. His footwork patterns were just that, patterns. Very predictable and too easy to check, and his strikes were similarly patterned and predictable. The other was teenager that had done some esoteric form that I don't recall. Fast beyond belief, but couldn't put a bit of force in any shot, and somehow could not get the idea that people were allowed to hit him while he was throwing his furious flurry of (soft) blows.



Maybe these guys only ever sparred on a point system (e.g. one point break, spar until next point then break) or did semi contact sparring. While these are good for teaching technique and fitness it does not relate well to actual self defense. Semi contact teaches you to pull your punches at the last minute so as not to knock out your opponent. You really need to learn how to hit a real person as hard as you can without any gloves (have you ever noticed some bouncers/doormen always have gloves on in any weather). So this guy may have seen his short comings and decided to do something about it and try your "real-world self-defense" which makes him very brave imo.

Greg

[Sepanto]

Just a quick point here since I actually own a Gung Fu school:

It might be more than the workout that was fatiguing you so much.

I have found many hardcore "football" type athletes have a problem with correct breathing techniques and also trying to hard. If you have a problem with one or both of those issues, you're actually burning yourself out. It's not the routine.

In addition to it being a new type of workout and also being the FIRST workout will make it very tough for you. Just like anything else workout related, your body needs time to adjust.

In your next class, try to take a more relaxed approach and breath. Most often I find that the kicks section is where the problems come up. Rely more on your support leg and focus on keeping the kicking leg relaxed.

If I'm off the mark, I apologize. Just thought I'd offer a different perspective.

Best, Jerry

You have got a very good point about newcomers not knowing how to breath.

I remember we had a guy who came to us who was a beast, . However teh second we sparred he was out of air, because he didn't quite know how to breath while trying to get technique and footwork right.

[sifujerry]

You have got a very good point about newcomers not knowing how to breath.

I remember we had a guy who came to us who was a beast, . However teh second we sparred he was out of air, because he didn't quite know how to breath while trying to get technique and footwork right.

The funny thing is, is that this concept also happens with people that are good at standup but are new to the ground game and vice versa.

I think we tend to hold our breath during times of uncertainty. When I started working with a BJJ coach, I was out of breath all the time. Now I can go for many 5 minute rounds with one minute rest without getting too fatigued. You have to become comfortable in the environment and if the problem still persists then you can focus more on just the breath aspect of it.

All the best, Jerry

[BrutalityisLaw]

Actually, it is a bodyweight exercise forum, and this is the combat arts section. And if any section has more than its' fair share of e-penis waggling, it is this one.

And I've never been impressed with the combat ability of the actual kung fu guys I've gotten the chance to play with. Great athletes, flexible and fast, but they lacked in the really important attributes for actual hand-to-hand work (eye for distance, timing, real world footwork, etc). Apparently they did not do much sparring at their studio *shrug*. It was a shame. They could've been great.

This is not to say that all kung fu studios produce bad fighters, but I sure as heck wasn't impressed with the two I got to cross gloves with. I will say that they looked a damnsight more fluid and pretty than I ever did, or will. I ain't built for that.

--

Because people usually want specifics, one was a guy in his 40's (at the time) that had done Jow-ga for a number of years. He joined our Kenpo group to learn some real-world self-defense. He had stunning power, but no ability to move footwork-wise. His footwork patterns were just that, patterns. Very predictable and too easy to check, and his strikes were similarly patterned and predictable. The other was teenager that had done some esoteric form that I don't recall. Fast beyond belief, but couldn't put a bit of force in any shot, and somehow could not get the idea that people were allowed to hit him while he was throwing his furious flurry of (soft) blows.

The Jow-ga guy was cool though. His forms were awesome to watch, and had SO much power. You didn't ever want to be on the wrong end of his strikes, but with that predictability problem (and his huge tells) there usually wasn't much to worry about.

None the less the guy is talking out his ass plain and simple. I would say you worked with inexprienced kung fu artists. Or very one sided ones at least to not have good footwork.

[bretakmf]

Strength alone serves little purpose in any martial arts. And i put my money on it that any of them kung fu guys can kick your ass!

an interesting phenomenon that i saw quite a bit in prison: martial arts guys getting their asses DESTROYED by good streetfighters who only trained by jacking iron. strength and genuine aggression make for a very powerful combination, NOT to be taken lightly.

this is not to disparage the benefits of combat training--i do so myself--it's just that training is useless if you don't, deep down, have the heart for it...

i've never sparred with a kung fu guy who could hold their own--they spend waaaaay more time pretending to fight than actually fighting....and many of their techniques are ridiculous at best.

ultimately, success in combat is contingent upon the individual more than the style--there are guys in all sorts of styles who can do well in an actual fight, as well as guys who have no formal training who can do well in an actual fight. just because someone has taken classes in 'what to do if i get into a fight' doesn't mean they can actually implement it if/when the time comes for things to get serious...the ability to actually do so is what separates the true fighter from the paper tiger.

[sifujerry]

i've never sparred with a kung fu guy who could hold their own--they spend waaaaay more time pretending to fight than actually fighting....and many of their techniques are ridiculous at best.

That is unfortunate. I think this is indicative of a trend I see forming where a great "style" has been twisted with all the McDojo's out there. So you have a lot of people practicing in the Illusion of learning the mystical majical martial arts. There are many types of great Gung Fu and there are way more styles that are too flamboyant to be effective. Couple that with an overabundance of teachers out there that don't truly understand the applications of the forms they are teaching and you get people that can't fight at all even though they are training in a good "system" of Gung Fu.

ultimately, success in combat is contingent upon the individual more than the style--there are guys in all sorts of styles who can do well in an actual fight, as well as guys who have no formal training who can do well in an actual fight. just because someone has taken classes in 'what to do if i get into a fight' doesn't mean they can actually implement it if/when the time comes for things to get serious...the ability to actually do so is what separates the true fighter from the paper tiger.

Agreed. It all can't be laid at the feet of the style or the teacher. Even the greatest teachers of all time can only do so much with students that just don't get it. So what you have are students that want the illusion of MA training end up at the McDojo while the hardcore guys end up at the combat focused schools like Krav, BJJ, Filipino and Indonesion type schools. But even all of these folks won't truly get it. Some of them are just Masochists that want to get beat on and will never learn anything more.

My 2 cents.

Best, Jerry

[bretakmf]

That is unfortunate. I think this is indicative of a trend I see forming where a great "style" has been twisted with all the McDojo's out there. So you have a lot of people practicing in the Illusion of learning the mystical majical martial arts. There are many types of great Gung Fu and there are way more styles that are too flamboyant to be effective. Couple that with an overabundance of teachers out there that don't truly understand the applications of the forms they are teaching and you get people that can't fight at all even though they are training in a good "system" of Gung Fu.

yep....with flamboyancy, it's that heavy wushu influence.

with applications, often teachers do know and practice the applications, but only in a controlled manner, from "reference points" etc. students get good at demonstrating applications, but never spar, and so arrive at an unpleasant surprise if the event ever comes up.

when i was traveling around to different schools i noticed this a lot with the chinese stuff. in the one school of chinese origin--a jkd/wing chun school--that DID actually spar, they couldn't actualize a lot of their techniques in actual practice--trapping, for instance. i destroyed their best fighter with a body slam and ground and pound in about 1 minute--but boy did he look good in forms and chi sau...


Agreed. It all can't be laid at the feet of the style or the teacher. Even the greatest teachers of all time can only do so much with students that just don't get it. So what you have are students that want the illusion of MA training end up at the McDojo while the hardcore guys end up at the combat focused schools like Krav, BJJ, Filipino and Indonesion type schools. But even all of these folks won't truly get it. Some of them are just Masochists that want to get beat on and will never learn anything more.

My 2 cents.
Best, Jerry

and--with some styles--aikido, JKD, prob some forms of gongfu--they were originated by teachers who could apply the style very, very well, but never had students who could even come close....here we have examples of styles being an expression of the individual.

[sifujerry]

There are also many reasons why people train in the MAs at all. Many do it because they want to learn to fight. But many others do it because of the health and spiritual dimensions.

Having said that, there is a lot of fall out. Meaning, there are people who begin training for the exercise at a run of the mill school. Maybe this school has a great exercise program and the student is getting what they want. The problem however is when this student starts to think that because he is training hard on the mat, that this feeling equates into martial capability.

Having a school myself, I understand the balance beam I have to walk in order to retain students. For the beginner I have a well rounded program which deals with improving strength, flexibility, stamina and coordination of the student at the same time teaching them rudimentary forms and beginning techniques. Only after they have been students for a while will i start to introduce higher level forms and application concepts to them. In fact, so as not to turn off the student that may not want the "intimacy" of combat scenarios, I've removed a lot of the "technique" from my program all together. In order to capture the other end of the spectrum, those students who want the teeth in their technique to be sharp, I have a Combat Applications Program that runs at a different time. So in order to get the full picture, they have to enroll in both.

The difference in my school is that all of my students KNOW that they aren't trained killers. They KNOW that if they want to learn fighting techniques they have to enroll in the separate program.

In my combat program I focus on the different ranges of combat; grappling (BJJ), Panantukan/Silat and Thai Boxing/western boxing. We focus on one range for two months, say grappling, then at the end of that time we spar for real to give them the sense of reality. Then we move on to another range (and give everyone a chance to heal because everyone gets hurt alittle bit with this) for another two months.

People can tell which of my students is a dual program student and which is not just by the way they move their bodies in class.

All of the above allows me to cater to as many people as possible without alienating anyone but the most polar of possibilities; the hard core combat enthusiasts and the complete wimps.

All the best, Jerry

[corazon de diablo]

you're not out of shape you just train different muscles and are used to a completely different work out. a lot of people who come from different sporting/ gym backgrounds come to our muay thai gym and because there's nuthin else that compares to pad work so after an hour they're f*ked. stick with it and you'll adapt to the training routine. not to say it won't still knacker you out, but you'll last a bit longer and recover a bit quicker!

[David43515]

Put your ego aside for a minute and think real. Get with the picture this is a combat forum not a show off forum. Strength alone serves little purpose in any martial arts. And i put my money on it that any of them kung fu guys can kick your ass!

Sure.....That`s why boxing, wrestling, judu, kyokushinkai karate (where most matches are decided by KO) and shuai chiao all have weight classes, because strength means nothing.

Real traditional martial arts has always placed lots of emphasis on strength training. Because skill, nad speed being equal the stronger man will always win. The myth that strength means nothing entered the American culture in WWII when little Japanese who knew how to fight started whooping booty by pulling the unexpected on big American farmboys who didn`t know how to fight dirty.Here in Asia strength training has always been a big part of training martial arts.

I`ve trained Kung Fu for 30 years and my technique is VERY good thank you. But it also helps that I`m about 6ft 240. Size matters . Remember what the oldtimers say "The race goes not always to the swiftest, nor the battle to the strong.....but that`s the way the smart money bets."

[BrutalityisLaw]

Size does matter I never said it didn't. But is what I mean is that raw strength alone, Power is a different story. Thats why they have weight classes cause obviously a guy who weights 220lbs can obviously over power a fighter at 170.


here's my favorite example cause it comes up the most:
There's always a meathead who thinks "cause I bench 500lbs I will be a power house when it comes to punching." That's what I meant. Strength is needed cause as we all know power is speed and strength.

[climber]

Amen. The most reasonable response I've seen.

[bretakmf]

here's my favorite example cause it comes up the most: There's always a meathead who thinks "cause I bench 500lbs I will be a power house when it comes to punching." That's what I meant. Strength is needed cause as we all know power is speed and strength.

funny how the same guys never think that they'll be able to throw a baseball faster than a pitcher...

[cheesedog]

funny how the same guys never think that they'll be able to throw a baseball faster than a pitcher...

Yeah, why is that? Maybe because most guys recognize that pitching a baseball is a SKILL, but every Bubba Joe Jack thinks he can punch.

[Fatman]

Raw strength alone is not the main factor. But it helps tremedously, in grappling sports at least. I remember as a beginner who knew nothing about technique I could hold my own against most experienced guys due to being much stronger (unless the sparring dragged on, in case of which my laughable conditioning would soon spell my demise). Later I saw the same thing happen to me with strong newbs - they were the toughest ones to beat. In a controlled environment like a gym where striking arts are practiced, the strong guy will have much less of an advantage (as it's mostly about having the stamina to go through sparring and his strikes wouldn't do much - you're not supposed to go all out on an opponent in sparring).

[BrutalityisLaw]

HAHA I was the same way, still get that way sometimes when I wrestle with really expirienced guys. I hate to rely on alot strength and explosiveness to break guard and things of that nature.

[leeb51]

it depends what style of kung fu you are studying. i study wing chun and we dont do cardio exercises, a kung fu class should be just that - kung fu! it should be up to yourself to do your own conditioning in your own time. your kung fu class should be about learning kung fu, not how many press ups or sit ups you can do. kung fu is not about using your muscles, it is about perfect bio mechanics, using your body in the perfect way that results in a lot of force with a little effort.

i would seek a class that focuses on training you the art form, not a fitness class disguised as a martial art.

if you want to do a martial art that incorporates fitness, go for karate or tkd or tang soo.