Best MA?

[Chico]

What do you think is the best MA for fighting?

[Moonduck]

Whatever works. That's it.

These sorts of questions do nothing but start meaningless arguments, usually amongst fanboys that have never even thrown a punch.

[VingTsunMonkey]

No such thing.

I've seen TKD people destroy boxers. I've seen Wing Chun guys rip apart wrestlers. It's what works for you, your bodytype, personal fighting method, and more than anything else: who you're fighting.

I have experience in Tang Soo Do (3 years), Kyokushinkai Karate (6 years), Boxing (2 years), BJJ (2 years), Wing Chun ( 3 years) and Ryu Te (3 weeks). MY personal opinion is this: Spend time in a school, if you don't think it'll work or you don't like it, leave and find another. If you feel as though you don't need any further training, leave and train on your own. Do what you feel is best for yourself and your goals/bodytype.

[koltz]

Striking+wrestling style.

[plancheismine]

BJJ with a little boxing skills

[VingTsunMonkey]

People always say BJJ or wrestling... but out of all the fights I've ever been in not a SINGLE one went to the ground. I won't let it happen. If you really don't want to go down, chances are you won't. Of course, you have to train against those things, which doesn't take much.

[Moonduck]

The best reason to train in a grappling art is to learn to defend against a grappler. Second best reason is to learn throws and takedowns that drop your opponent to the ground. Other than that, it's best to stay off the ground in a "real fight". The last thing you want to be on the street is on the ground, immobilised, and way too focused on the guy you're rolling around with. That's when his buddies come up and do the Joe Pesci Stomp on you ribs and head.

[-TM-]

No such thing.

I've seen TKD people destroy boxers. I've seen Wing Chun guys rip apart wrestlers. It's what works for you, your bodytype, personal fighting method, and more than anything else: who you're fighting.

I have experience in Tang Soo Do (3 years), Kyokushinkai Karate (6 years), Boxing (2 years), BJJ (2 years), Wing Chun ( 3 years) and Ryu Te (3 weeks). MY personal opinion is this: Spend time in a school, if you don't think it'll work or you don't like it, leave and find another. If you feel as though you don't need any further training, leave and train on your own. Do what you feel is best for yourself and your goals/bodytype.

amazing 'fighter' resume there!

[Moonduck]

As an aside, about half of the fights I've been in have wound up on the ground.

[plancheismine]

People always say BJJ or wrestling... but out of all the fights I've ever been in not a SINGLE one went to the ground. I won't let it happen. If you really don't want to go down, chances are you won't. Of course, you have to train against those things, which doesn't take much.
:-D I'm the kind of person who takes it to the ground.
you can prevent the virus but once it gets you, you're gone :wink:
(you are from the city, blacks usually don't like to grapple so i can see it being a stand up bout....)

[VingTsunMonkey]

True, they tend to enjoy the swinging alternating haymakers and shirt grabbing. I've had a handful of people TRY to take me down, but if you really don't want to go down, it's rough. Getting close enough to execute a hip throw also means you're close enough to get your knees taken out or your temple hooked in. Deep stable stances and knowing what you're doing while you hit them is all it takes to keep yourself on foot.

[plancheismine]

sure....i'm not talking hip throws. I'm talking shooting for the takedown and when you do that you can be out of their reach zone but in your takedown zone, it it very easy to take the fight to the ground.

[VingTsunMonkey]

Last guy who shot for my knees ended up with some missing teeth. Kneed him in the jaw so hard his eyes rolled back. The second I saw him lunge I lunged too, but I put the hardest thing I had in the path of his face.

I just don't believe that wrestling is viable for use against someone who knows how to strike outside of the ring. Bare knuckles are far removed from gloves. One good shot with bare knuckles can split a man's skull open. If someone has me on the ground and doesn't keep himself hugging my chest, the second I have 2 inches I'm going to ram my 3lb 50 mph fist into his adam's apple or rip the eyes from his skull. I HAVE seen what can happen to someone who's complacent on the ground, and I'm not about to be that guy left in an alley with his elbow hyperextended and his bicep ripped in half.

The trick to ground fighting: never give them the chance to get position. I don't care how big or tough you are, if I ram a pheonix eye into your middle ribs, grab and yank your rib tips, grab your muscles and twist, hit you in the adam's apple, gouge out your eye, cup slap your ear, or just take chunks of you away with my teeth, you're going to move. Maybe just enough to let me finish the job, but that's all I need.

If someone has a weapon and you take them to the ground, you've killed yourself. While you're working an angle, I'm pulling a knife out of my pocket and shanking the hell out of your organs which are a convenient 3 inches away. What about that person's friends? Do you really want to be that close to someone who really wants to hurt you? I'd like to see you comfortably put someone in a figure 4 leg lock with their teeth that close to your femoral artery, or keep them in a headlock while they crush your testicles. You're just too open when you grapple, you don't have as much mobility and if you start to lose you have NO way out, you can't turn and run, you sit and die.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in my 2nd year of BJJ training up here at AMAFA, but I also grew up in a very unforgiving neighborhood. I've seen people stabbed and been in too many fights. Chances are, at least in city fighting, there WILL be more than one guy, and they will not hesitate to jump in for their friend. You don't want to be lying on your stomach then... trust me.

[plancheismine]

Knees are good but I will still put you on your back. Even better I shoot for a low single (at the shin) no knee is possible or the "lunge" technique.
Now what are you going to do when you are on your back? throw your 50 MPH cross? as I apply an armbar. Even if there are friends, striking has its flaws, especially after you get wrapped up by two guys.
headlocks are for novices and streetfighters.
You can come up with rediculous scenarios but it won't change the fact that grappling has been proven to be the best fighting style time after time

[Moonduck]

Whatever works. That's it.

These sorts of questions do nothing but start meaningless arguments, usually amongst fanboys that have never even thrown a punch.

....

I felt it was worth repeating. Get over your MA-related e-penis issues. No MA is the best. No single Combat Range is the best. No attack is the best. No tactic is the best.

There is only the best applicable MA/Range/Attack/Tactic for a given situation.

[VingTsunMonkey]

Dead on Moonduck.

It's about bodytype, preferance, situation, environment.. etc. I'm speaking from my 11 years of experience with martial arts and the 15 years of experience I have with getting in fights because of my skin color. You may speak from a different perspective, but when you get right down to it, it's all the same thing: FIGHTING.

[plancheismine]

okay best style MMA

are you white vingtsung?

[Moonduck]

okay best style MMA


Then we have the next question, best MMA for what? Competition? Self-defense?

Personally, I would say JKD, but I say that only because JKD is an open-door MMA. Everything is permissable, and the art itself is only a set of principles, not a set of maneuvers/styles. But that just leads back to "Whatever works", as I said before.

To be a bit less pedantic, and a bit more pragmatic, I would advise a mix of instruction. The usual mix would include Western Boxing for striking and footwork, Savate or Muay Thai for kicking and footwork, Catch-As-Catch-Can Wrestling (which encompasses Sombo, BJJ, etc), and I would also include some VT or similar work in Trapping range (though western boxing, MT, and various grappling styles do some work in trapping range). Lastly, I heartily suugest the Filipino unarmed styles, if you can find someone to teach them. The movement drills and concepts are awesome.

In short, you really should look at learning each of the four ranges (kicking, puching, trapping, and grappling) to at least proficiency, and then take two ranges beyond that. The idea being that if you get into it with someone, they are probably going to be most comfortable in one or two given ranges. You should immediately move the fight outside of their comofrt zones and into a range where you are better than they are.

For instance, a western boxer is going to be most comfortable in punching and trapping range (ie "The Clinch"). At that point, you need to either control distance and keep the boxer at kicking range, or you need to drop him to the ground. A good TKD player will own you at kicking range, and do okay at punching, so you need to get up in his grille and go right to trapping and grappling.

Personally, were I looking to get the most effect via the least instruction, I would go with western boxing and some form of grappling. A lot of MA's teach you useless shit at the beginning. A Karate instructor teaching you to do punches in a deep horse stance with your hands starting at your waist may be getting you stronger, but he also going to get your ass kicked if you try that in a fight. Boxing doesn't teach anything useless.

The grappling arts are similar, usually. Because grappling is taught by working with an actual partner by default, you are wired for technique and success from the first lesson. None of this punching-the-air crap that causes you to be shocked and possibly hurt yourself the first time you actually hit something (not to mention wrecking the power of your punch because you're training your body to apply the brakes at the end of every punch, but more on that later). Nope, you have your hands on someone who is actually reacting like a human being. So even your initial instruction in grappling is useful simply because it is applied instruction.

Oddly enough, the astute observer will note the western boxing also emphasizes sparring, another reason I suggested it. An MMA student, either sport or self-defense, should be looking to do sparring, and you won't find that in your run-of-the-mill dojo/dojang/kwoon.

[VingTsunMonkey]

Yes, I'm white.

I pretty much agree on MMA being are more valuable experience than confiding in a single art. MMA doesn't mean UFC, it means mixed martial arts, which is exactly what I use. I skipped from art to art and learned what I could, and whenever I spar it's a culmination of those years of varied experience.

[VingTsunMonkey]

You can come up with rediculous scenarios but it won't change the fact that grappling has been proven to be the best fighting style time after time

Oh.. and proven WHERE? In the ring. Oh wait, the ring bears NO resemblance to a street fight. My friend Dante was stabbed just last year at a bus station, almost died. When's the last time that's happened in the octagon? The ring isn't the street man, one day you'll have someone jump you and come to that hard realization. It'll change your life, guaranteed. While he and his buddies are kicking you in the stomach in the middle of the street at night, and you can't do anything but sit there and hope they stop before you're dead, you'll put more faith in an open-minded fighting strategy.

Grappling is good in one situation: if your opponent is unarmed and alone. You better hope he isn't anyone like Ramon Dekkers, Iron 'MT' Mike, Sakuraba, James Peterson, Oyama, or Oyata though... or you'll be shooting your head into a blender.

[plancheismine]

someone could just very well pull out a gun.
Fighting in the octagon in the beginning (when BJJ was proven to be the best) was basically a streetfight

[VingTsunMonkey]

How many streetfights have you been in?

[Moonduck]

someone could just very well pull out a gun.
Fighting in the octagon in the beginning (when BJJ was proven to be the best) was basically a streetfight

Both the rules, and the Octagon, were designed to be BJJ friendly.

Let's see...

No time limit - BJJ's most commonly used tactic against superior strikers is wearing down your opponent in the guard

No corners on the Octagon - the shape of the octagon and its' construction made it very difficult to gain support or purchase on the walls. This makes it harder to stop a takedown by grabbing the ropes or a corner, and means that a really good striker couldn't back a grappler into a corner and pound away

Padded floors - obvious how this benefits grapplers and doesn't do jack to help strikers

Prohibited moves - all of the prohibited moves were strikes, or techniques strikers use to get out of grapples (biting, groin shots, etc). No real limits on grappling maneuvers.

So if you want to be fair, use the same line-up, no restrictions on attacks, on a concrete floor in a square room, and we'll see.

NOTE: I like grappling. I consider myself a grappler first and foremost. I just find the use of early UFC to support BJJ is a bit self-serving considering as how deeply involved the Gracies were in the design and set-up of the UFC. It might as well have been a frikken commercial for Gracie BJJ, man.

[plancheismine]

psssssst first 4 ufc's groin shots were perfectly legal :wink:
It might slighty favor grapplers but even grapplers use GnP with gloves on.....

[VingTsunMonkey]

NOTE: I like grappling. I consider myself a grappler first and foremost. I just find the use of early UFC to support BJJ is a bit self-serving considering as how deeply involved the Gracies were in the design and set-up of the UFC. It might as well have been a frikken commercial for Gracie BJJ, man.

Beautifully put sir! I'm taking BJJ, I LOVE it, but it's just not the king of all martial arts. No such thing my good sir; those sort of mindsets are what get people beaten... severely :lol:

You have to use what you can when it's usable. One screwdriver doesn't work on every screw.

[sifujerry]

Hello all,

I'm new on the board but thought I'd chime in on this subject.

I agree with just about everyone's points but it really comes down to qualifying what you are trying to learn and making sure you approach your training with that in mind.

If your goal is fighting in the ring, train MMA and work the different ranges. You also have to learn RING STRATEGY and the RULES of the game.

In the street, there's no such thing as RULES, there's just survival. But there is strategy. You have to think outside of the box. I don't remember which of you posted it but things like eye gouges, biting, muscle twisting and pinching are all things that most trained martial artists would never think of unless it's brought to their attention. It falls outside of their thought process and most "styles" don't cover this type of thing. It's more underground.

So the bottom line, as far as I'm concerned, is that there is no one best system. You need diversity of range training and an understanding of the "dirty" tricks that will keep you alive.

Peace, Jerry

[Moonduck]

Heh, one of my favourites was a particular biceps twist. Ouch, damn, hell, that thing hurt :twisted:

[Danootje]

Like people already said, no MA is the best.
Probably MMA- mixed martial arts- has a chance, but it depends on a lot of factors.

[isaiah.chentnik]

Last guy who shot for my knees ended up with some missing teeth. Kneed him in the jaw so hard his eyes rolled back. The second I saw him lunge I lunged too, but I put the hardest thing I had in the path of his face.

I just don't believe that wrestling is viable for use against someone who knows how to strike outside of the ring. Bare knuckles are far removed from gloves. One good shot with bare knuckles can split a man's skull open. If someone has me on the ground and doesn't keep himself hugging my chest, the second I have 2 inches I'm going to ram my 3lb 50 mph fist into his adam's apple or rip the eyes from his skull. I HAVE seen what can happen to someone who's complacent on the ground, and I'm not about to be that guy left in an alley with his elbow hyperextended and his bicep ripped in half.

The trick to ground fighting: never give them the chance to get position. I don't care how big or tough you are, if I ram a pheonix eye into your middle ribs, grab and yank your rib tips, grab your muscles and twist, hit you in the adam's apple, gouge out your eye, cup slap your ear, or just take chunks of you away with my teeth, you're going to move. Maybe just enough to let me finish the job, but that's all I need.

If someone has a weapon and you take them to the ground, you've killed yourself. While you're working an angle, I'm pulling a knife out of my pocket and shanking the hell out of your organs which are a convenient 3 inches away. What about that person's friends? Do you really want to be that close to someone who really wants to hurt you? I'd like to see you comfortably put someone in a figure 4 leg lock with their teeth that close to your femoral artery, or keep them in a headlock while they crush your testicles. You're just too open when you grapple, you don't have as much mobility and if you start to lose you have NO way out, you can't turn and run, you sit and die.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in my 2nd year of BJJ training up here at AMAFA, but I also grew up in a very unforgiving neighborhood. I've seen people stabbed and been in too many fights. Chances are, at least in city fighting, there WILL be more than one guy, and they will not hesitate to jump in for their friend. You don't want to be lying on your stomach then... trust me.

Yeah I would agree. The reality of a fight can be pretty nasty. I have a friend who got stabbed 7 times but "won the fight". Do the math on that one. My friend took the dude to the ground started punching him and didn't even realize he was being stabbed (adrenaline & intoxication). The guy was stabbing him in the back towards his heart. They stopped and the fight was over. The dude with the knife was knocked out. My friend didn't even realize what had happened until after someone asked him why he was bleeding and then he started feeling blood drip down his back. He was almost killed. A couple of stabs were an inch or so from his heart & major arteries. Good thing the dude didn't know what he was doing with the knife or maybe he did and was just off that day. Just goes to show it's better to walk away if you can. And like my old man always said, never bring a knife to a gun fight!

[Justus Unlimited]

Knees are good but I will still put you on your back. Even better I shoot for a low single (at the shin) no knee is possible or the "lunge" technique.
Now what are you going to do when you are on your back? throw your 50 MPH cross? as I apply an armbar. Even if there are friends, striking has its flaws, especially after you get wrapped up by two guys.
headlocks are for novices and streetfighters.
You can come up with rediculous scenarios but it won't change the fact that grappling has been proven to be the best fighting style time after time


Low singles can really destroy non-wrestlers who don't know how to maneuver their body in a way that it wont hurt. I've done it to people in a nonserious fashion and it will often put them on their knees

[CESSPOOL]

You also have to remember their can be a huge difference between a martial art for a combat sport and a martial art for a life and death scenario. many things allowed in the latter are by no means legal for a competition.

So if you mean fighting in they way of cage fighting your need will vary greatly from fighting for survival. though their can be some transition between the two. Sambo for instance or as we have seen can be effective. While I doubt a Krav Maga person could move to MMA as easily. and while BJJ is needed in the cage. alot of it is holds which isn't what you really want in a real life fight. You want to end the situation ASAP.

so, what kind of fight do you mean. and I also agree this is going to be a huge matter of opinion between fanboys.

[Silumguy]

What do you think is the best MA for fighting?

A martial art is only as good as its disciple.

[Sepanto]

very strong point is that it is dependant on your opponent... against a man smaller and weaker than myself i would preffer somekind of ground work (greco-roman wrestling, bjj,jjj) while against a bigger person than myself i'd go with stand-up fighting.

[nready]

What do you think is the best MA for fighting?
Boxing is the best I have studied.

[Amato]

Depends on what you want? Self defense, competitive fighting, health, etc..?
If your talking about real fighting, then there is none, there is nothing that really prepares you for a real fight, because there it doesn't matter what you do but stay alive.

[boris]

there are no superior martial arts, just superior martial artists. as far as street combat, consider this: anything you can't do in the ring, is acceptable in the street. my background is in ninjutsu and jujitsu. I am studying WWII Combatives now. There are only about 10-12 techniques or so and were used in WWII , a slightly bigger deal than a streetfight. find something you can do and work at it. then get a gun.

[nready]

there are no superior martial arts, just superior martial artists. as far as street combat, consider this: anything you can't do in the ring, is acceptable in the street. my background is in ninjutsu and jujitsu. I am studying WWII Combatives now. There are only about 10-12 techniques or so and were used in WWII , a slightly bigger deal than a streetfight. find something you can do and work at it. then get a gun.Interesting send me some stuff via pm so I will know what they are. You got me interested.

[boris]

check your box

[nready]

I just came back online at 9:24 am here on Thursday, March 6. Any way thank for sending that information so quickly boris. It is interesting stuff do remember it from the military when I was in now the system in the military is more including Bjj. They still have the same thing so to kill.

[boris]

You are welcome!!

[crazydan]

psssssst first 4 ufc's groin shots were perfectly legal :wink:
It might slighty favor grapplers but even grapplers use GnP with gloves on.....

also dont forget eye gouges and fishhooking etc were legal you would just get a fine but u would still move on if u ripped soeones eyes out

[moak]

I've never seen a REAL street fight not go to the ground. By the same token, I've never seen the one with more invested in the fight lose. Trash talkers tend to hesitate, because they're not sure if it's going to escalate to blows. In that case, some MA experience could get you out unscathed.
But being pissed off is huge. When you're really pissed, you don't think, therefore you don't hesitate. The more pissed off guy will generally take a hit to bulldog you down. You don't register pain as quickly or fully when you're actually seeing red. I don't care how many years of martial arts experience most people have, unless you are a MASTER, there's not a lot you can do if a big dumb really PO'd hick with no neck and a good chin decides to bearhug you at 4.3 40 speed.
And I've seen some REALLY REALLY pissed off people fight, all around the world. The more pissed off guy always bum-rushed and tackled the other. ROE kept me out of it because no weapons were involved, but there were several times I almost felt the need to shoot.

Bear in mind, I'm talking about Sunni vs. Shiaa pissed, Muslim vs. Serb pissed. Not my-mom-is-prettier-than-your-mom-pissed or why-did-you-bump-into-me-in-the-club pissed.

So, in conclusion, I guess I would say the best martial art is desire and the instinct for self preservation. Axe-kick vs hair pulled out at the root? Arm-barre vs. I'll pull out your eye and show it to you? Fish-hook vs. I'll bite your bottom lip ALL THE WAY OFF? I've seen it. You decide.

BTW, I love MA. I just think that when its REALLY serious, most people get primal. Sprinting the opposite direction is always a good skill to have.

[emsley]

Ill go with vingtsunmonkey, I would say that the martial arts that are standing firm are the ones we witness in the mma at the mo. However, body type, personality, attitude etc all play a part depending on the situation, there are many factors. I believe though that their are some effective strikes in kung fu and karate and a variety of ways to use the fist. This is what brings fun to martial arts because doing what you enjoy is supposed to be fun! It's fantastic how many choices we have in regard to martial arts, now is one of the best times to be training.

BECOME ONE WITH YOUR BODY, FIGHT BACK!